MEMORANDUM of Telephone conversations between General Groves and Lt. Col. Rea, Oak Ridge Hospital

9:00 a.m., 25 August 1945.

G: "... which fatally burned 30,000 victims during the first two weeks following its explosion."

R: Ultra-violet - is that the word?

G: Yes.

R: That's kind of crazy.

G: Of course, it's crazy - a doctor like me can tell that. "The death toll at Hiroshima and at Nagasaki, the other Japanese city blasted atomically, is still rising, the broadcast said. Radio Tokyo described Hiroshima as a city of death. 90% of its houses, in which 250,000 had lived, were instantly crushed." I don't understand the 250,000 because it had a much bigger population a number of years ago before the war started, and it was a military city. Now it is peopled by ghost parade, the living doomed to die of radioactivity burns."

R: Let me interrupt you here a minute. I would say this: I think it's good propaganda. The thing is these people got good and burned - good thermal burns.

G: That's the feeling I have. Let me go on here and give you the rest of the picture. "So painful are these injuries that sufferers plead: 'Please kill me,' the broadcast said. No one can ever completely recover."

R: This has been in our paper, too, last night.

G: Then it goes on: "Radioactivity caused by the fission of the uranium used in atomic bombs is taking a toll of mounting deaths and causing reconstruction workers in Hiroshima to suffer various sicknesses and ill health."

R: I would say this: You yourself, as far as radioactivity is concerned, it isn't anything immediate, it's a prolonged thing. I think what these people have, they just got a good thermal burn, that's what it is. A lot of these people, first of all, they don't notice it much. You may get burned and you may have a little redness, but in a couple of days you may have a big blister or a sloughing of the skin, and I think that is what these people have had.

G: That is brought out a little later on. Now it says here: "A special news correspondent of the Japs said that three days after the bomb fell, there were 30,000 dead, and two weeks later the death toll had mounted to 80,000 and is continuing to rise." bodies.

R: They are getting the delayed action of the burn. For instance, at the Coconut Grove' they didn't all die at once, you know - they were dying for a month afterward.

The Coconut Grove, a Boston nightclub, was the scene of a terrible fire in November 1942 that killed over 400 people.

G: Now then, he says - this is the thing I wanted to ask you about particularly - "an examination of soldiers working on reconstruction projects one week after the bombing showed that their white corpuscles had diminished by half and a severe deficiency of red corpuscles.

R: I read that, too - I think there's something hookum about that.

G: Would they both go down?

R: They may, yos - they may, but that's awfully quick, pretty terrifically quick. Of course, it depends - _ but I wonder if you aren't getting a good dose of propaganda.

G: Of course, we are getting a good dose of propaganda, due to the idiotic performance of the scientists and another one who is also on the project, and the newspapers and the radio wanting news.

R: Of course, those Jap scientists over there aren't so dumb either and they are making a play on this, too. They evidently know what the possibility is. Personally, I discounted an awful lot of it, as it's too early, and in the second place, I think that a lot of these deaths they are getting are just delayed thermal burns.

G: You see what we are faced with. Matthias is having trouble holding his people out there.

R: Do you want me to get you some real straight dope on this, just how it affects them, and call you back in just a bit?

G: That's true - that's what I want. Did you also see anything about the Geiger counter? It says that the fact that the uranium had permeated into the ground has been easily ascertained by using a Geiger counter and it has been disclosed that the uranium used in the atomic bomb is harmful to human bodies. Then it talks about this, which is just the thing that we thought - - The majority of injured persons received burns from powerful ultra-violet rays and those within a two-kilometer radius from the center received burns two or three times, which, I suppose, is second or third degree. Those within three to four kilometers received burns to the extent that their skin is burned bright red, but if these burns are caused by ultra-violet, they hardly felt the heat at that time. Later, however, blisters formed resulting in dropsy.

R: That's why I say it's got to be a thermal burn.

G: Then they talk about the burned portions of the bodies are infected from the inside.

R: Well, of course, any burn is potentially an infected wound. We treat any burn as an infected wound. I think you had better get the anti-propagandists out.

G: Of course you are, because the whole damage has been done by our own people, there is nothing we can do except sit tight. The reason I am telling you is because we can't get hold of Ferry and because I might be asked at any time and I would like to be able to answer. Did you see about the Army men who had received burns on reconstruction? "Examination of 33 service-men, of whom 10 had received burns in reconstruction projects, one week after the bombing took place, showed those with burns had 3150 white corpuscles and others, who were apparently healthy, had 3600, compared to the ordinary healthy person who has 7,000 to 8,000." This is a drastic decrease. Comes over from Tokyo. On the other hand, servicemen with burns had only 3,000,000 red corpuscles and others apparently healthy had just a little bit more when compared to 4,500,000 to 5,000,000 in the ordinary healthy person." What is that measured by?

R: You go by cubic millimeters. I would say this right off the bat - Anybody with burns, the red count goes down after a while, and the white count may go down, too, just from an ordinary burn. I can't get too excited about that.

G: We are not bothered a bit, excepting for - what they are trying to do is create sympathy. The sad part of it all is that an American started them off.

R: Let me look it up and I'll give you some straight dope on it.

G: This is the kind of thing that hurts us - - "The Japanese, who were reported today by Tokyo radio, to have died mysteriously a few days after the atomic bomb blast, probably were the victims of a phenomenon which is well known in the great radiation laboratories of America." is what does us the damage.

R: I would say this: You will have to get some big-wig to put a counter-statement in the paper.

10:30 a.m., 25 August 1945.

G: ... with respect to the crater only, on the ground that nothing outside the crater had any effect at any time.

R: I tell you another one that I talked to Dr. Wensel about. He said that one person who could give some very good information, and who would be a little outside the inner circle, was L. F. Curtis. You know, he was down at Clinton Labs at one time, and is with the Bureau of Standards now. knows more about radiation effects probably than anybody, and I think his number there is Ordway 4040. Of course, we do know this - I can't tell you much over the phone - we do know what some of these effects are, and it depends on the dose, etc. Undoubtedly, when you read this in here - we know, for instance, that radiation does not cause the burn immediately, it's later on, now the heat and the radiation going together, but the immediate effects they have are undoubtedly burns. No question at all about that. I notice, too, in the paper about that white count going down and the red count, but after all it's a very poorly-controlled experiment when you don't know those people's white counts specifically were beforehand. Some normal people have a 4,000 white count.

G: Is there any difference between Japanese blood and others?

R: As far as I can make out, no. About the same (I looked it up). It seems to be pretty standard. The way they print up the remark in this paper - it says: The broadcast, perhaps intended to arouse sympathy, also declared that persons in the area, as much as a week later, became ill, but did not state specifically that any of these persons died. Of course, you know, with rabbits, in those experiments, where they give them about 800 roentgens after about a week or so, it usually happens for some long prolonged time afterward.

G: They couldn't have possibly got 800 roentgens here, could they?

R: Well, it's a little unusual. You saw that report from Warren on the test? Well, they have a lot of stuff in that, you know. T think we had better get the OWI back and counteract some of this.

G: I think that, if nothing happens, it should just be ignored.

R: To tell you the truth, I don't think many people know the difference between a 2,000 white count and a 50,000 white count. I think the way it is written here, at the end of the article - AP release - "the radioactivity causes loss of appetite, etc." Ours is a very general article - I'm sure these things must be just good old thermal burns.

G: From what I've heard about how much food they get in Japan, I don't think they'd lose their appetite, do you?

R: I don't blame them.

R: Do you have the report from Col. Warren in here on the New Mexico tests?

G: Yes.

R: Listing of the blisters, of course, they mention here (some of the words are left out according to our report here, with words missing right here) they say what I told you about the kilometers, this reference might mean second or third degree burns - I think they give it away right there what they're referring to.

G: Yes, I think so. When was that report of Warren's written?

R: On first test in May.

G: We got that one.

R: Then there is a written one by Frisdall.

G: We have it.

R: Myself, I'd just ignore this - we thought something was going to happen - the thermal burn was the main thing.